Do you know what's going on in this picture? John sent it to me to ask if I could help him date the dress the woman is wearing (looks pretty early-1930s to me, or else set WAY in the Art Deco Future), but I'm so intrigued by everything going on in this photo (the box! the altar! the little-girl pages with swords! the priest!) that I asked him if I could post it and set y'all loose on the problem.
This is what John knows:
The photo was taken in the Cathedral in Fort Wayne, Indiana. The man is Msgr. Thomas M. Conroy, which dates the photo anywhere from 1921 to when the altar was changed about 1933 or so. No idea who the lady is, or what on earth they are doing, let alone in that gorgeous apparel. [ETA: the lady's name may or may not be Rosemary NEDILASEN or NEUBAUER.]
The photo above is pretty small; if you want to download a REALLY BIG one, that you can enlarge to see the detail on the box (a reliquary? an offering of some sort? a time machine?) you can grab it here. [UPDATED: here's a closeup of just the box.
My first thought was perhaps the woman was taking vows of some kind (to become a nun, or to join the Space Vestals — I'm sorry, I can't pull myself away from that Art Deco Future) but John thinks that novices usually didn't wear so much makeup. Or so much velvet.
What do you think is going on? If you KNOW, that's wonderful, but in the meantime, idle speculation is encouraged.
A Dress A Day 
No idea what they’re up to, but I WILL tell you that I’m a costume designer and I set a show this year in the Art Deco Future (I was calling it “Back to the Deco Future” for a while). Metropolis? Aelita, Queen of Mars? There is not much that is cooler than the Art Deco Future!
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Don’t know what they’re doing, either, but her outfit looks like shots of early 30’s Vionnet gowns. I’d date it 1930 or thereabout.Huh. The box thingy could be a reliquary (sp?). Maybe.
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They look too happy to be at a funeral…I wonder if it’s an adult First Communion or Confirmation.
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I’m not sure what the occasion is, but don’t the little girls look happy? Usually in posed pictures in churches, small people appear so stiff and well, posed. I especially love this girl to our left of the glorious velvet-clad woman. Doesn’t she look like she has just popped in on her way to have tea with the Mad Hatter from Alice in Wonderland? I find it is odd that the diminutive damsels are wearing shortpants in a church in the early 30’s.As much as I wish they were holding swords (I think we should arm all six year olds), I think they are just canes. But let me tell you, that insane girl looks like she might start whacking away. That’s why they didn’t give her one.If I may ask: Is this a scanned photo or negative?
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This is clearly a photo of Mrs. Coulter presenting an alethiometer to the Magisterium.(Disclaimer: I’ve been listening to The Golden Comapss and sequels on tape on some really long car rides lately, and that may color my perception of reality a bit.)
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I am intrigued by the mary janes on the girls. unless mj’s were done different way back when…all of them are the same style with the strap buckle in the center which indicates that this is not a thrown together costume for a one time occasion??? The lady’s gown is sumptuous and if it is a costume it appears to be made just for her. It fits too well to be a church piece used for others??? Knights of Columbus wannabes?? Red Riding Hood, her fan club and wolf ashes???
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It’s possible that the lady in the gown, the priest and the girls in knickers are marking a feast day for a saint.
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WOW! I am so very interested in this. I have to know.I love the Mrs. Coulter explanation. We just watched Golden Compass this weekend so I am probably swayed a tad as well.
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This reminds me of photographs of a simliar era from old year books from my alma mater, a small midwestern college not far from Fort Wayne. In the year books there are all kinds of Queen of May, Festival of the Falling Leaves kind of dress-up extravaganzas. I would bet serious money that this is some sort of theatrical thing, not a serious religious observance.
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I’m wondering if it isn’t a May Queen crowning. They use to be elaborate affairs.
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Until Catholic came up, I thought Aimee Semple Macpherson.The whole thing is very 1933 circa. Remember, what was in Paris one year was not usually in Fort Wayne immediately. The page boys make it look like a wedding. The box? That’s her secret forever.Judith in Umbria
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The box the woman is holding is undoubtedly a reliquary. It could contain anything from the remains of a saint to a consecrated host to be taken to the sick. But my guess it that it is the former.It is possible that this is a picture taken in connection with the lady’s presentation of a newly-recovered relic to the Church. One wonders if the church in question has such a reliquary in its posession now?Another possibility: Many years ago I read the biography of Sister Pascalina (Pope Pius XII’s personal secretary, he became pope in 1939), in it she mentions American women who had made large financial donations to the church being created “nobility” of the Vatican and given noble titles. It is possible that something like that is going on in connection with the woman in the picture.Well, that’s my guess.
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My take is similar. That’s a reliquary – perhaps a new piece that she has donated. I think those are little boys, not girls. A RC church in those days wouldn’t have had girls up by the altar.
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In the really big photo, I can see what appears to be a circular opening on the top of the box-like thing she is holding. Her hands seem to be on a smaller pedestal underneath.My guess is that she is presenting a chalice to the church, an art piece, possibly antique, European, medieval(?), a family heirloom, perhaps. As a chalice the object doesnt look especially practical (could anyone actually drink from this chalice?), which makes me think its more of an art piece.Why such a presentation requires a group of fancy-dressed pages, I don’t know, but I’m curious.CMC
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I wish this picture was in color! The lovely lady’s dress could be red (garnet), maroon, green, purple, navy…… The pages costumes could be any light color. Inquiring mind wants to know.
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Hi, this is John who sent in the photo. If you take a very close look at the faces of the pages, they are clearly girls. You’ll notice the two in the rear have no canes, presumably they are train-bearers.The box is almost certainly a reliquary; a google-image search of the word will show that this is a typical form of a medieval reliquary. I speculate that the medallion hanging from a chain, coming out of the box, contains the actual relic, which would usually be stored in the box. That is not an opening on the top, rather it is an oval, with a fleur de lis design, and the design of the flower is that of the arms of Florence, Italy.One thing that bothers (intrigues) me is that the priest (a Monsignor) does not appear to be dressed in a manner to ‘match’ the pagentry going on around him, unless he has removed his liturgical vestments, and is posing for photos after the event?I was pleasantly surprised to see 14 comments already so soon after posting. I’m off to look up Vionnet!I greatly appreciate all your comments, and look forward to reading more.John
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John, can you post a more detailed scan of the reliquary and pendant? They may offer some clue.
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Is/was there a school connected with this cathedral? If so, could be a photo op connected with a school play or pageant–thus the informal dress of the priest, and the presence of girls. Though the outfits seem too posh for that, perhaps. Was this a very wealthy parish? Sorry–more questions than answers, but my curiosity has been piqued!
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Could we have confirmation that this is indeed a Roman Catholic Church? The Episcopalian Church has many similarities to the RC Church….then there’s the Eastern Orthodox churches….I think that the pages are little girls. I don’t think little boys usually wear Mary Janes.
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Univerga Amy: since the priest and the altar are known, I think it can be safe to assume that it is a Catholic church!
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Eastern Orthodox churches have both priests and altars. I believe Episcopalians ALSO have priests and altars (though I’m not certain). That is why I asked.
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what about a second marriage (if in a Catholic Church, the marriage of a widow, naturally)? This is a photo of her and her attendants (perhaps the miraculous sextuplets she had with her first husband). obviously she wouldn’t wear white (heaven forfend), so she chose a beautiful indigo velvet with a long train, and prior to the ceremony was photographed with a memento mori in deference to her first husband’s very wealthy family.ok, probably not what John is looking for (I hope someone solves the mystery for real!), but great fun to speculate about.
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what about a second marriage (if in a Catholic Church, the marriage of a widow, naturally)? This is a photo of her and her attendants (perhaps the miraculous sextuplets she had with her first husband). obviously she wouldn’t wear white (heaven forfend), so she chose a beautiful indigo velvet with a long train, and prior to the ceremony was photographed with a memento mori in deference to her first husband’s very wealthy family.ok, probably not what John is looking for (I hope someone solves the mystery for real!), but great fun to speculate about.
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She sure is working that train and the ruched velvet at the sleeves.I thought second marriage at first, too. Looking at the big photo, you can see the children’s costumes are purely costumes (elastic waist, faux buttons).As for the reliquary, if the priest wasn’t there, it would look a lot more like a jewelry box with a pendant hanging down.
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I have no idea what’s going on, but it really reminds me of that scene from Evita where she meets the Pope. Sweet!
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I’m guessing from the level of coordination with the girls’ costumes that this is some sort of women’s organization affiliated with the parish–maybe a female Knights of Columbus sort of thing? That might help explain the pageboy suits. Looks like a ceremonial occasion where a representative of the organization makes a ceremonial presentation to the church–maybe even an annual event? The voluminous cape and the fancy gloves are really the big deal; otherwise she just has a long, dark skirt and a white satin blouse, certainly in the style of the time but not especially haute couture. A fancy cloak with matching gloves would lend itself to reuse by a variety of ladies, as long as they wore something suitable sober and generic underneath.
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Ah! I clicked on the Big Picture and I can see the reliquary details now. A little Googling and some good guesses (those many years of Catholic indoctrination and education do come in handy from time to time) led me to the Fort Wayne, Indiana Cathedral (Cathedral of The Immaculate Conception , 1122 S. Clinton St., PO Box 10898, Fort Wayne, IN 46854, Phone: (260) 424-1485 Fax: (260) 424-7625). Details: Catholic parishes are defined by geographic boundaries. A bunch of parishes are grouped into a geographic district called a diocese. Each diocese has a cathedral.There is a Cathedral Museum, containing, and I quote: Religious artifacts dating back to the mid-13th century.http://www.diocesefwsb.org/museum/Ill bet this artifact is in that museum today. And, one can only hope, some recorded facts about the reliquary and its presentation to the cathedral???CMC
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I’m from Fort Wayne and know that the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception has a museum. Perhaps they could answer the questions.
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I’m wondering if it doesn’t have to do with the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, which is what Google tells me is the name of the Cathedral in Fort Wayne. Also, pure white is the colour associated with this feast, which would explain the pages’ costumes, and it’s on Dec. 8, which would make the velvet cape seasonally appropriate. Yet most of the Google results I’ve found for that feast mention ceremonies involving advent candles, none of which are present in that picture.
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My first thought was First Communion, but I’ve never seen everyone dressed the same like that. Maybe it is a play about a Saint?
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I have no idea. What I do have is connections with a bunch of people who are obsessed with Church History and Pageantry (any Church will do). I’m going to post this link on the Ecclesiantics board at http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/ and see what they think.
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I have no idea what is going on, but the page on the far right is the spitting image of the little girl in Mary Poppins.
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Determining a date for this ceremony would be helpful. My guess is that this photo was used in either the local newspaper (society or religion page) or a diocese newspaper, published perhaps once a month (my San Francisco diocese had such a publication). Any article about this event (in whatever publication) might even mention details about that lovely DRESS.CMC
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I wonder if I could be something to do with Job’s Daughters?
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Yes, there was a school, run by nuns.Definitely is the Cathedral, Immaculate Conception, Roman Catholic.Larger photo link on the site here will show detail.Don’t know what color gown is, but you’ll note it is lined in a lighter color; the pages have canes, which are be-ribboned with both fabrics.IF a second marriage, would there not be a ring on top of the glove? And what ABOUT those gloves, and if she is wearing a white (satin?) blouse, where do those ruched velvet sleeves come in? Did not know there was a museum, but I did write this morning to the diocesan archivist to ask if the reliquary is still in the Cathedral.A Queen of May or Immaculate Conception ‘lady’ would surely have been in white herself, and I cannot imagine she’d wear that jaunty beret or so much make-up? Likewise, this does not suggest a saint to me.Must rush to work, but will look into the Museum idea later!Thanks again!John
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I have absolutely no idea what is happening in this picture. At all. I can’t connect facts or speculations to it. At all. I am completely entranced. It is a MUCH stronger stimulant than my tea. I feel like making something now. Thank you so very much for…this… yes.
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Another possibility is that it may be something having to do with the church’s rosary society. This is my hunch because in many Catholic churches the rosary society was the ladies’ social and philanthropic group, similar to the Knights of Columbus. If so, it could also explain the little girl pages, as there would not be little boys associated with the rosary society. It looks like the presentation of an artifact to me as well. Amy
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My guess would also be a ceremony donating a relic to the church, probably by a woman’s organization. Would the Eastern Star donate to the Catholic Church? There definitely looks like some pageantry going on there. Or some other Catholic woman’s organization. I’m not familiar with any, as I wasn’t raised Catholic, but my mother belongs to the Episcopalian Church Women, an organization for Episcopalian women that is independent of the church, and they have their own money that they use for various charities, including their own parish.
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John–If you don’t have much luck with the museum, you might want to contact the archivist at the Knights of Columbus headquarters in New Haven, CT. She might be able to help with the historical aspects, or with the particulars of feasts, pageants, etc. You can access her email address through their website, kofc.org.Good luck–and keep us posted!
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BTW, the little girls are holding canes with ribbons tied close to the handle.. The woman looks very young, too–she has plucked eyebrows, so she’s not a schoolgirl, but I wouldn’t put her much past 25. So either she’s rich, or she was chosen for her looks, which considering the other pageantry, isn’t unlikely.
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John, just repeating my request for a scan with greater detail of the reliquary & relic(?) than shown on the the large picture.
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Those kids couldn’t possibly be Morris dancers, could they? In their white outfits with beribboned canes?
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This wouldn’t have anything to do with Eastern Star or Jobs Daughters. Both are Masonic-affiliated and in the 1930s wouldn’t likely have Catholic members or any association with a Catholic church.
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There are female run Catholic organizations. The one I’m most familiar with is the Council of Catholic Women, but I don’t know how far back CCW goes historically.I was born after Vatican II, but the idea of a priest being vested for something other than a Mass is a bit odd. It’s pretty common for a parish to honor their patron with a ceremony, and the priests don’t usually wear vestments for those. If the patron saint of the parish is a female saint (the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary, so the cathedral would treat Mary as their patron saint), often girls and young women will be heavily involved in the celebration, and this tradition goes back centuries. I’ll forward the image on to my father, who is a pre-Vatican II cradle Catholic to see if it’s a reasonable looking image to him and if he has any other ideas.
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Hi John,oooo this is a fun,exciting mystery. almost as good as an Agatha Christie.For what it is worth here is my 2 cents worth.The Young lady (I dont think she is much past 18) is dressed very much in the style worn by a young Carole Lombard in the very early 30s. She was filmed many times wearing a beret and this was a signature style with her. The YLs eyebrows are also tending toward but not at the extreme plucked arch that was very fashionable in the mid 20s.I agree that all the pages are girls although boys did wear the leather shoe with strap right through the 20s 30s and 40s especially in Britian. I think whoever made the page outfits was a huge Mary Pickford fan and copied an outfit she wore in one of her early films. After all Mary was the epitimy of style!!I am not familiar with the area that the photo was taken (I am in New Zealand) But research has shown that especially in the 20s and 30s The Movies (Hollywood) was the bigggest influence on fashion especially in the smaller provincial towns. Sadly now its MTV but thats a whole other topic.Good luck with your research.VickiJane
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The little girls might possibly be little boys. Boys were decked out in page-boy haircuts up to a certain age (starting school?) in the 1920s.
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The children look like boys to me (unless there’s some tendency for mid-western girls to have very broad, masculine jaws that I don’t know about.) The pants issue is very valid, girls in church in pants is unthinkable before the 1970s. The shoes and hair cuts are perfectly suitable for boys of the 20s & 30s. Interesting as always how people assign gender based on their own cultural biases. They certainly are far too pretty to get away with being boys in our hyper-masculine era, aren’t they?
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Several of the children are wearing long johns under their stockings. Perhaps this was the end of a processional that began outdoors.
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The Carole Lombard comparison is fitting as she was a Fort Wayne native (it doesn’t look like her, but maybe she had a little sister or a cousin? an early body double?). Re. the Catholic Priest’s vestment — don’t know about the States, but certainly in France and Italy in the 20s (and well into the latter part of 20th century) this would have been standard dress in and out of church. Re. page boys/ girls — I have pics of my grandfather (born 1918) and his brothers, with long curls, dressed in white lace, and looking like little girls for much of their early years (and no, my great grandmother was neither weird nor did she harbour a yearning for girls; it was the fashion). The curls and lace would disappear as they reached school age to be replaced by pudding bowl cuts like some of the ones here. There are also pics of them wearing suits very similar to these (albeit dark and somewhat less fancy…). Fab velvet gown whatever the occasion!!
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I have no Idea what is going on in this photo, but I do think that 1. shoes and hair notwithstanding, I believe that these are boys. I am 35 and it was still a big deal when we had girls do anything at mass when I was a kid.2. rings are worn under gloves. 3. that cape was wicked heavy and I am thinking black with green lining.
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